♪♪ hi there, everyone. happy montd. 4:00 in new york. a wave of reporting underscores the stakes of the investigations into the january 6 insurrection and the potential for those investigations to lead our democracy into some unchartered waters. let's begin with the piece of evidence that's sure of interest. it's a text message from don trump jr. to mark meadows on november 5, 2020. as you may recall votes still being counted then. two days before president biden declared the winner. "new york times," it is simple. don trump jr. wrote on november 5, 2020. he wrote at another point there's multiple paths.

we control them all. and laid out options that trump or allies employed in trying to overturn the results of the election from legal challenges to promoting alternative slates to focusing on the date of january 6. an attorney for don trump jr. confirms that the message was sent and passing along someone else's ideas. this text which outlines the way that team trump spoefb cli donald trump jr.'s son and trump tried to overturn the election results before being certified is part of a stream about the trump coup plot. revelations coming out since the insurrection took place. revelations that left the select committee convinced that there's evidence to refer the former president to doj for criminal

charges. that bar is reached by the committee. here's what vice chair cheney said ant that on sunday. >> it is clear that what president trump was doing, what a number of people around him were doing, they knew it was unlawful and did it anyway. >> she would go on in that interview to down play the reporting that the pam is divided over whether to go ahead and make a criminal referral to doj. "the new york times"s reports this. the debate is whether on making a referral would backfire by tainting the expanding investigation into the assault and what led to it. on that front news that doj secured the cooperation of pro trump activist and rally organizer ali alexander,

cooperating with the january 6 probe coming after a broad subpoena from the d.c. grand jury seeking information on multiple aspects of january 6. "new york times," quote, while it is unclear he was involved in the sprawling effort to mount protests challenging the results of the election and contacts with extremist groups, members of congress and white house officials in the period after election day. evidence in the coup plot as the committee weighs a committee referral to the expanding january 6 probe is where we start the hour. jackie allamany is here. harry litman is back. and with us on set mike schmidt,

"the new york times" washington correspondent and a national security contributor. there's a high bar to make a criminal referral to doj. was this something that they foreshadowed in that filing laying out the evidence? something that the federal judge that ruled in the eastman case let out the back? how and when and why did this come out now? tie commit tee really laid out this case in that filing in the eastman case trying to get the emails that the lawyer advising trump leading up to january 6 may have. it was almost an indictment essentially what they filed. the committee has no powers at all criminally but a version of a indictment. laying out the evidence to say trump violated on instructed a

congressal investigation and defrauding the american people. we have known that that was the perspective and then what happens is that the judge rules in that case and really sides with the committee. basically saying, it is more likely than not that someone, trump and eastman, broke the law here. and what it is is that -- so on one hand the committee feels confident that they have more than enough to go to the justice department and say, hey justice department, there's a fair amount of criminality to be examined here but the question that they are now wrestling with, does that make sense? they have wanted this pressure to be built on garland. this is what they basically started doing when cheney started to read from the criminal code at the end of last year. that pressure they thought that

they needed to make a referral to create has already been created because of the judge's ruling, the disclosures. so do they need to make the referral? do they actually need to do that? because the pressure is already there. and if they do that, does it undermine an investigation ultimately? what it would do is people would say, well, this is the justice department just doing what the democratically controlled congress wanted to do so why do you need to make the referral if the pressure is already there and a federal judge has said, i think there's criminality? i think they believe that's enough for garland to do something. >> harry litman, you tell us. is a referral without making a referral a referral by another

name? by making clear they have the evidence without the referral have they done what a referral would do? explain the difference of stopping with the evidence and explain what a referral is. i think people wonder why a congressional committee has to go through this. why isn't garland investigating? >> he is and he has all the evidence and probably more and can give it to him. a referral is saying that we refer this to you for a criminal prosecution or investigation into doing that. why would they do it? look. there's a certain drama and gravity to have a branch of the government just as when judge carter made that declaration and remember when bob mueller made

no conclusion because he thought he was so bad it was a mealy report. those are the reasons why. on the other hand and a general nuanced judgment call. not a political rift in the committee. it puts pressure on garland. he could dismiss it. and it could also i think worried to be off putting. it is not evidence. one more thing. making referrals for contempt they're the victims. this is information. this is the political act. i don't mean to discount that of a congress say so that weighs in

favor but there are things on the other side and especially the point mike made about giving a ready made argument by republicans saying it is just garland dancing to their tune. >> let me argue the other side. >> yeah. >> i guess liz cheney would not have read from the statute if she had confidence that was being upheld by the justice department. the vacuum is created by the sense. we don't know. it is opaque. maybe they're steaming ahead and the witnesses first time and five times since trump arose and all wrong and gar lapd has donald trump in the sights. the vacuum is created by garland. why is whether -- why are they so fragile? why does it depend on whether the committee refers it or not?

>> it doesn't. you're right. yes, the very statute she read is exactly -- it is clear. it is clear at this point they have the evidence and of intent. it doesn't matter if he didn't know but the evidence is copious he did know. what the decision will turn on is not the evidence but factors having to do with is this the right thing to do for the country? you're right. he is no shrinking flower. the only reason to do it is to make a statement as the committee as the culmination. we are not just giving you information. trump committed crimes here. it won't influence garland. >> jackie, the two crimes we know the committee has gathered evidence on and now they believe

reached did bar to make the referral why cheney seemed to describe a different crime yesterday. it sounded measure like a conspiracy. let me play that for you. >> i think what we have seen is a massive effort that used multiple tools to try to jove turn an election. you have seen in the last few days a plea agreement from one of the leaders of the proud boys that lays out in chilly detail the extent to which violence was planned, to which the message that went out on december 19 about the planning, about the rally in washington and don't forget. donald trump tweeted out that message. be there, be wild. that the day after that message the organization and the planning started. and that they understood that they knew that they were going to attempt to use violence to

try to stop the transfer of power. that is the definition of an insurrection and absolutely chilling. >> so jackie, it seems like with this bar reached what liz cheney is talking about is new evidence orr additional evidence to tie trump to the violence? >> yeah. congresswoman cheney is ahead of the plot. it is smart of us to be parsing all of her public statements and including some of the outlines of criminal statutes that he's referencing. its does sound like. we haven't heard from the committee just yet but looking at the mirror operation, the justice department investigation, the justice department is conducting that's

primarily the lane they focus on at the moment but approached it from a bottom up approach. in terms of a public perspective. but again, i do think you have seen this back and forth as mike and "the new york times" team got out about how far should the commit tee go coming to talking about criminal referrals and this disagreement that has played out in public view since bennie thompson mentioned criminal referral in december and really waffled on just how aggressive the committee's going to be but one thing that someone i spoke with who's involved in the investigation told me that resonated is the committee might be better suited to stay in the lane to prove a higher standard of proof that trump was morally

liable and as a political question that might in some ways have more of an impact as to making a -- the word that they used a superfluous referral. >> i hope that part is achieved. i don't know there's relevance in 2022. i want to ask you about cheney's comments focusing on the tweet, mike. that's as jackie laid out on the doj bottom up investigation. talk about where the probes may meet? >> i want to pick up on something that jackie said about does the committee want to stay in their lane. look. the congressional investigation is not the mueller investigation or the first impeachment.

but mueller really tried to stay in his lane and i think that there was some feeling whatever the facts were going to bear themselves out would carry the report and by mueller staying in the lane they lost control of the carr. barr did what he did with the report. mueller's team was not able to arctic late to the public the summaries of the report as a narrative took hold so if you look at donald trump and you look at the different attempts to stop him, staying in your lane in one of the most dramatic instances didn't work. >> didn't work for anyone. >> if you look to mueller to stop trump. the folks would say, look, we decided we couldn't indict the president. the end of the day they were not

happy with how barr was able to take hold of the investigation and the narrative to allow it to set before we were able to see the report and then seeing the report the public made up the mind. i think that whoever is making a decision here has to realize that norms, lanes have not really worked with stopping donald trump. >> harry litman, the norm that even the two impeachment -- i would add the two impeachments to the failure of the mueller report. the day after mueller testifies when trump calls zelenskyy and extorting an ally. not only did the probes stop him but they didn't slow him and the extra judicial conduct of a

sitting u.s. president that has been written about. so i guess my question to you is, the norm that was supposed to be the final break was defeat. that's what this is about. he is defeated at the ballot box and what every impeachment detractor said was the best way to get him. joe biden gets him and kicks the political rear end. the likes of which donald trump could only have dreamed about himself and here we are. >> here we are. >> it didn't work. he didn't accept the defeet and the bully son is sending the texts how to overturn what they knew was the defeat. >> which bitcoin are incendiary. there's nothing to add. there's nothing out of the norm for congress to put the title on and refer it.

the worry is political impact and will it give others a club to beat them with but the mueller example is what is sobering. without that title it is a mish mosh of facts to be distorted especially if control changes in november. to come out and say it as a political matter, stay in their lane. i think mike's point is really the important one. >> let me come back to you, jackie, on the doj probe. it may ensnare the allies from the bottom up now and this reporting that -- sound bite of cheney focusing on the december 19 is the focus of some doj sentencing memos and other legal

filings and i wonder if you can talk about the commit tee's work in that space work rg from the insurrection back to donald trump. >> yeah. it's really been an undercover point of view with the committee but they have been interviewing the insurrectionists that spoke with the justice department and tried in some cases and sentenced. they are looking. this is part of the mandate that they laid out all the way back in july or the beginning of august last year. to create a sort of modern portrait of radicalism. those are actually the interviews from people on the commit tee that they found the most interesting and insightful

and helpful to understanding what they have trouble to understand. the soccer mom from tampa that became an extremist and driven to storm the capitol. the lawmakers listening to her helps them understand the far right side of this in a way that they didn't understand to hopefully down the line write a report to address this and prevent people like this from falling into the fringes of american society. >> that is -- super important. we need to sneak in a break. ali gets the committee straight to one of the big high profile targets. that's testimony that the commit tee already has. more on that when we come back and what prosecutors might get

from hearing from him, more fullsomely as he is said to be coop rating. could vladimir putin be winding up to interfere in our elections again? that's a warning from intelligence today. dangerous assess jmt later the big announcement from president biden on tracing and controlling guns in the country. parkland dad will be our guest. stay with us. ith us

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i was the person who came up with the january 6 idea with congressmen. we four schemed up maximum pressure on congress while they were voting so that who we couldn't lobby we change the hearts and minds of republicans in that body hearing the loud war from outside. >> we haven't seen a walk back of that yet. that was rally organizer ali alexander boasting of what was to come to pass that balm the insurrection along with and names names there.

gosar, brooks and big gs. brooks i think wearing a bullet-proof vest. alexander is complying with the subpoena issued by a federal grand jury from washington d.c. part of the expanding probe. we're back with jackie, harry and mike. this is the reporting from one of the filings about who he might lead investigators to if he's more cooperative. capital alexander had that call with kimberly ghoul foil. she thanked him for being a leader on voting rights. the two spoke about the ongoing georgia election and the gop primaries in 2022. the select committee seemed

satisfied with the explanation of the short call. explain the significance of ali alexander. >> it is significant. i wouldn't put him on the stand but as a source of information, if you want to vin diagram this whole thing, i'm sure they are in the committee, you have a well developed january 6 but there's a question of stone shadow bridge to trump and the white house and all this stuff in congress and alexander has a lot to say about both things. he can really begin to fill in and show overlaps there. one more good point. the refrlts on contempts for a maximum of a year. somebody like scavino might say i'll do a year for the boss.

alexander has leverage of 10 to 15 years and makes them talk and he has real information to give. >> i want to turn to reporting from maggie haberman reporting this on the text from donald trump jr. with the strategies to fight the outcome. it is clear that's significant to people looking at this as to what he lays out. we have a vote we control and we win or it gets kicked to congress january 2021. it is interesting they were looking to january 6 then. >> reading before and hearing alexander, three members of congress. >> gosar, brooks and biggs. >> january 6 commit tee -- i

thought of something else. >> okay. >> sorry. january 6 committee gets credit for looking at a lot of different things. those three names which have been almost directly tied to january 6 and the pressure, they have not been subpoenaed. they have issued the subpoenas, they have got metta data. i don't think metta data. phone records why documents, text messages. they haven't subpoenaed the three people. and it's for reasons that are not entirely clear. seems like they don't want to take the gloves off in regards to other members of congress and something the justice department doesn't care about that but if the select committee is trying to have more the authoritative

account why aren't they talking to those members of congress? >> no idea that the justice department is looking at them. >> the january 6 committee gets positive publicity, especially on the left for the fact to go as far as they have and that they cast the nets as far as they did. they seem incredibly important to understanding what happened. this investigation may end and may nevada have interviewed them. >> i think liz cheney was on with chris wallace and insin waiting or strongly suggesting that mccarthy had information and if ever a real invest into january 6 he would be of interest.

i think one of the big forks in the road for the committee is what to do. they don't tip their hand. mccarthy and perry of pennsylvania and jordan of ohio so those are the three that i think are named of the coup plot. what is the status of those conversations? >> i think mike hit the nail on the head here. in private conversations with people involved with the investigation the committee doesn't want to necessarily cross the rubicon. things are tense and don't want to add rancor to the relationships that they have on the hill and that there is a sense that maybe the don't of justice can provide relief

coming the members specifically. i stopped paul gosar in the hallways. we have to take it with a fact check and tried to claim that alexander exonerated him in the closed door testimony and interviews with the january 6 committee and why he wasn't called in and then also kobtded to say that he should not be -- if he was called in he would not appear unless they actually forced everyone who so far subpoenaed in some way and already signaling to putt up a fight and very reticent to cooperate with a subpoena but at the end of the day coming to the justice department mike said it. they don't care if you're a sitting member of congress. if ali alexander says something

in front of the grand jury and all we know is that he had provided everything to the commit tee to the justice department and not sure where the grand jury will go next and whether or not he will apyre but then the justice department's decision to make to call in the lawmakers explicitly mentioned in the videos and have now publicly acknowledged that they were involved in planning the january events to some extent. >> i'll try again with the donald trump jr. evidence. you have the net coming closer and closer on the congressional front and tell appear on the doj front. kimberly guilfoyle and this text from donald trump jr. the significance seems to be

before the certification they knew they had lost and turning to the anti-democratic measures. the plot was always a disruption and to defy the will of the voters and the president's son talking about january 6. knox out any questions about premeditated nature of january 6. tell me how you see the donald trump jr. evidence. >> that's true and 100% and comprehensive. a few more just quick points. yes, they would call members of congress but i think the committee chosen to go paths of lesser resistance in order to have a full presentation come june. one more thing about alexander before going to the grand jury would have been debriefed at

length by fbi agents. if and when they call members of congress to either testify or have an informal interview they will have the information. that's how doj scares people to get information. >> would you put mccarthy and jordan in a separate category than the people alexander names? seems to suggest co-conspirators in the events that precreeded? >> yes. they are going methodically. can't we cut to the chase here says adam schiff and others? jordan and mccarthy has great things to say about trump. and that call that mccarthy has with trump as everything is going down is gold if you're

going for donald trump. when the time comes to make a preliminary charging decision subject to discussions with the president those are two irreplaceable witnesses. >> jackie, harry, mike, thank you all so much. a big day of news. switching gears to the brutality in vladimir putin's russia as it roars on. how are even more at risk? that's next. it's dr. scholl's time. our custom fit orthotics use foot mapping technology to give you personalized support, for all-day pain relief. find your relief in store or online.

it's been fascinating to watch the way u.s. intelligence assessments have been so spot on, almost predictive. not only capable of seeing vladimir putin next steps but collecting and analyzing them almost in realtime over and orr again. before the invasion agencies correctly warned the american people about false pretext and the strategy. now there's a new warning. one that hits closer to home for us. the associated press is reporting this. intelligence officials say putin may use the biden's support of ukraine to order to campaign to

interfere. there are still major concerns. quote, officials believe he may see the u.s. backing of ukraine's resistance as an afront to him to target another election why it is not clear if candidates russia would try to promote or methods. using is katy kay and charlie sykes is here why charlie, you are the least polite of us. we know exactly who they will try to help! those that call putin clever and genius, the republicans. >> why wouldn't he try to do this at this point? over the weekend the west had a

shock worried about a far right putin fan elected as the president of france. think about that for a moment but the election of a president is that limes 1,000. we have lived through that. the return of invest pt in the intervention is beyond calculation. he's miscalculated badly in ukraine but if the goal is to sow chaos and dissent in american politics he has succeeded. if his goal was to install at least for four years somebody that shared the views of nato he succeeded. there's no reason he would not if in a position to do so to interfere in 2024. he might be losing in ukraine and losing in the wst, nato may be more united than ever but

none of that matters if he is able to get one of the allies in the oval office in 2024. that would be a catastrophic success for vladimir putin. he has every incentive to interfere again. >> take the word of john bolton. from today's "the new york times." this is from a piece entitled "this was trump pulling a putin." john bolton replied he is not smart enough but had donald trump won in 2022 bolton said in the second term he might have inflikted quote damage that might not be reparable. i asked if the same concerns apply to trump in 2024. he answered with one word.

yes. >> i mean, the thing is just like charlie isn't slow about charlie saying who would want to help, multiple advisers said trump wanted to pull out of nato. i can't think of anything better for vladimir putin. having a president that would not allow the commitment until dragged into doing it and fought with our key european allies in the presidency. having somebody like that in the white house at the height of the most significant conflict in europe since world war ii would be a massive strategic victory for vladimir putin. creating chaos in the alinsz to hang together for at least three years and i think it's a much

longer potential struggle with russia and frankly in the battle between democracy and autocracy in the world you would have somebody on the wrong side of that battle in the white house if donald trump getting back in for four more years and he would go beyond what he did in the past and to cross into interfering with the lest's. maybe not swinging votes but creating havoc but crashing infrastructure. you can see him try to do to not only help donald trump but to throw the results in such doubt to create chaos in the united states. >> katy kay, the harrowing scenario described to me before by a former doj prosecutor is that we've gotten better to

protect ourselves in some ways and more divided and fractured and one of two parties doesn't have faith in elections thanks to donald trump. they don't think it's he jitd so you have a country pre-broken and when he analyzed the comments on the eve of the invasion on ukraine he said that's all they have to do. call him genius and clever. they can circulate in a loop in russia today and the aid from russia is secure. >> yeah. a reason we are as divided as we are is because russia had a hand to stoke the divisions. i was told they had seen

evidence of russian groups funding anti-vax groups in the u.s. why are they putting the money into the anti-vax groups in america and it is clear it is done just to stoke the kind of divisions and some correlation of those groups and donald trump supporters. that ties in together. we are in a moment where it is not just potentially republicans not trusting the democratic system. if there's been so many changes to the voting laws you have the potential if it's close and looks like that democrats won't believe the system and what xi jinping and vladimir putin what they want. whatever the method is, whether it's direct attacks on ukraine, chemical attacks or in syria,

misinformation and disinformation campaigns the end is to break europe away from america, to divide european allies, to cause disunity in the west. put putd will pick the tool to get there. it doesn't surprise me that he would try to interfere in the election. the only thing that would surprise me if he doesn't. >> the republican party in which i once worked would help him. we'll continue the conversation. an ominous prediction after a quick break. quick break.

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♪♪ lunchables! built to be eaten. the empact of the successful 2016 russian campaign remains evident today. our nation is being torn apart. truth is questioned. our highly professional expert foreign service is being undermined. the russian government's goal is to wakingen our country, to diminish america's role and neutralize a perceived threat to russian interests. >> that was back in 2019 as witnessing donald trump's first impeachment trial. it's true today, three years later. vladimir putin benefits from a weakened and diminished west, weakened and diminished united states. the question is how far will he go to accomplish that in 2024. we're back with our panel. i want to pick up with the

reporting in "politico" about the white house's concerns about what's happening in france. there's growing concern within president biden's administration that show a tight race between emmanuel macron and marie le pen. a possibly victory by le pen could up end france's role as a leading european power and potentially giving other nato leaders cold feet about staying in the alliance, according to three senior administration officials. not authorized to publicly discuss private conversations. i feel like you were warning us last week that this was coming with the ambassador about sanction and embargoes. tell me -- help us understand what's happening inside france and what is giving rise to le pen. >> so the last time they were in an election together, le pen and macron, he got about two-thirds of the vote, and it wasn't even

really close. all of the polling at the moment suggests that in two weeks' time these two will run off against each other again, and it will be much, much closer. and part of the reason is that le pen has been going around the country, she's softened her image, come across as less extreme far right on immigration and islam. but mostly what's pushed her ahead in the polls is she has been speaking to the french people about something that concerns them enormously which is rising prices. rising food prices and specifically rising energy prices. and the link that's being made is that it's the sanctions against russia that are causing the rise in energy prices. and it's done her very well in the polls. there is macron who has been playing the statesman, who has been talking to putin and biden and zelenskyy, and actually the french voters who have voted for marine le pen effectively said, okay, we may not love what vladimir putin is doing in ukraine, but that's ukraine's

war, it's not as important to us as food prices and energy prices are. and i think there's a real lesson there for politicians in the west, in germany and in europe, in great britain, and here in the united states, that you have to pay attention to inflation and rising prices because the biggest risk of all, if le pen gets into power who is -- has had long ties to putin, she is paying back loans that putin gave to her party, she has had campaign literature printed with her in photographs with president putin, if she gets into power in france she could do an enormous amount of damage to the unity of the western alliance against russia at the moment. she just is much more pro putin and much more anti-sanctions and much more opposed to nato and to supporting the military effort to help ukraine than emmanuel macron would be. it would be a huge win for

vladimir putin and a big blow to the ukrainians and to the western alliance against putin. >> charlie, it is -- it's more than a warning cycle. i think it's something that it's clear to me why the white house is watching this. what are your thoughts? >> no, the white house should watch this. this is a real threat to the western alliance. but you know, they won't -- the french have had their scare. they won't be as complacent perhaps and as smug as americans were back in 2016 and think that it cannot happen. but as i mentioned before, you know, this is another indication that vladimir putin can still win some victories in the west by using our system against us. now i don't think that that's necessarily going to happen again. but this is a warning sign that you have far right figures throughout europe who are willing to play upon these

nativist nationalist far right themes, and unfortunately you have american conservatives who are willing to make a common cause with them including people like victor orban. >> it is so cynical. we'll keep that in mind. thank you so much for spending some time with us today. when we come back, we'll go live to ukraine and speak with general barry mccafferty the dangerous new phase the war is entering. stay with us. ring stay with us

you've seen it on display every single day of the last 46

days. the brutality that the russians are capable of. we're seeing it today, as you and i are talking here, you can see it today. i wouldn't pretend to say that we know for certain that this new general is going to be the author of some new additional and more bloody tactics, but we can certainly say by what we've seen in -- in the past that we are -- we're probably turning another page in the same book of russian brutality. hi again, everyone. that was pentagon spokesman john kirby putting the news that vladimir putin has appointed a new russian general to control russia's operations in ukraine and some perspective and analysis there because although this new ground commander has a history of targeting civilians, he's been called the butcher of

syria and we're likely to see more heinous attacks on his watch. what we've already witnessed from the russian forces in ukraine is utter and complete devastation and brutality. the horrific attacks against civilians in bucha, the strike on a train station that killed more than 50 ukrainians simply trying to flee that part of the country, mostly women and children. the weeks' long humanitarian calamity unfolding in mariupol where ukraine's president zelenskyy now says tens of thousands of ukrainians have likely already died. that number's confirmed, it would be the largest death toll so far reported from one place inside ukraine. the appointment of the russian general is notable, though, for its consolidation of authority by the russians as they reorient their forces eastward focusing on the donbas region. president zelenskyy warning his people earlier that russia has deployed tens of thousands of troops to, quote, prepare new attacks. as satellite images appear to

show an eight-mile-long convoy of russian military vehicles moving toward that region. this weekend local officials say the eastern city of kharkiv was hit with 66 strikes over a 24-hour period. at least 11 civilians were killed including one child. ukraine's foreign minister stressed on "meet the press" yesterday that when it comes to getting the help they need to defend themselves, time and urgency are of utmost importance. >> the problem with supplying weapons to ukraine is that sometimes it comes too late. the timeline is crucial. every day matters, and things must be supplied on a daily basis to strengthen our defense capabilities. >> meanwhile, the u.s. and our western allies continue to try to rally support for ukraine. president joe biden spoke virtually with india's prime minister modi earlier. india has so far refused to condemn or even sanction russia.

modi today condemned the horrific killings in bucha but did not explicitly say that the russians are behind the killings. austria's chancellor met with putin in moscow. the first european union leader to meet with vladimir putin since the war began. after the meeting, the austrian leader said the discussion was, quote, very direct, open, and tough, end quote. on saturday, uk prime minister boris johnson visited kyiv where he met with president zelenskyy and walked through the city's streets to, quote, show solidarity with the ukrainian people. and the u.s. is answering ukrainian calls for more weapons, says the state department spokesperson ned price. here he was earlier. watch. >> we're not waiting. we're surging equipment every single day, providing our ukrainian partners with what they need to defend themselves. it's why we are so confident that our ukrainian partners will win. we are putting them in a position to do just that. >> it's where we start the hour.

retired four star general barry mccafferty former member of the noourt council new msnbc military analyst, form u.s. ambassador and president of the chicago consular of global affairs. a privilege to speak to both of you. general mccafferty, i want to start with you and john kirby's comments. we've talked about him on this program before. he doesn't -- he doesn't spin, but he seemed to be carefully -- he seemed to be careful about saying the brutal phase is under way, and the fact that the butcher of syria is in charge means the brutality is ongoing. does it also -- is there a worse after you've seen what happened in bucha and have witnessed at least the reports and accounts of mariupol? what -- what are you bracing for learning has happened on the ground in ukraine? >> i don't think the general is going to change much dramatically at all. he is a ruthless person.

he was, you know, hero of the russian federation for his work in syria, dropping barrel bombs on defensive civilians and poisoned gas. earlier in his career he did the same thing in chechnya. the guy's ruthless. the people that will be most afraid of him are his own generals. we've seen putin as a strategic approach as targeted civilians and their infrastructure with attack from the air and starvation. nothing going to change in that sense. i don't think this general has a joint headquarters. he doesn't have a joint staff. there will be no new dramatic integration of air, land, sea, cyber operations by the russians. they're going to about thor against ukraine in the east, in the south, try and take odesa. i don't think their options are very good. the problem is we are under the

gun here. nato and the individual countries have got to hustle, game changing technology into ukraine. until it appears and starts being employed, it's all words, not facts. >> general mccaffery, i ask you this question on a pretty regular basis, but help us understand -- if not by naming the weapons systems, maybe another couple months that will mean something to me, but help me understand the difference between what they're asking for and what we're willing to give them and -- and help us understand why that is. >> well, look, between secretary blinken who takes the lead on this, had the state department's lead agency on foreign military and providing technology and secretary austin, they've done a brilliant job during the first two phases of the russian offensive. it's been amazing. they organized european command, they've hustled this stuff across the border.

it's been individual countries, the brits, the french, and others participating, u.s. has been the principal agent of moving it. so they've done a magnificent job. now it's a new phase of the war. the russians are repositioning themselves, they're trying to rehab these units. they've got 25,000-plus killed and wounded. they're trying to infusion recruits, conscripts into their force and get new leaders. but at this point we need to support the ukrainians with a force of maneuver, not a couple of battalions. they need to start counterattacking with 50,000, 0,000, 70,000 troops. they need 500 modernized tanks. they need anti-ship missiles, not promised but delivered. they need s300. it's now moving in country. i think they're doing the best they can. but until we give them the tools, the offensive tools to take on the russians, they're in

great peril. >> and it's -- it's not a -- a war that has spared civilians and children. and i -- i asked every government official that came on this program if the images that came out of bucha changed those conversations that general mcaffery's talking about. and my question, mr. ambassador, is -- actually, let me play this. this is a ukrainian talking about the impact of the attack on the train station on friday inside ukraine. >> translator: after the recent situation, what happened to the train station, unfortunately i think people are now afraid to travel by train. and the flow of people have decreased by many, many times. before the stations were jammed, you couldn't go through, you couldn't drive through. now as you can see, the stations are hospital and we can easily -- are empty and we can easily get on. 100 or 200 people are here. that's not much at all. >> clearly the russians attacked

the train station to keep more civilian populations in the part of the country they plan to reduce to rubble and dust. mr. ambassador, in your view, how should that change any deliberations or streamline any processes for getting the ukrainians what they need to protect themselves? >> well, i think it has already led to a change in the kinds of equipment countries are now willing to send, the very kinds that general mcaffery talked about. we've seen the first tanks being shipped from the czech republic, we are hearing reports that there are now tanks coming from the germans that are being shipped. we have seen the shipment or at least the promise of shipments of anti-ship missiles which is extremely important to try and take out some of the ships in the black sea that are using missiles to target the civilians and, indeed, cities and train stations that we have seen. so there is a -- i think an acceleration and a change in the

degree to which europeans and americans are willing to send arms. i mean the european union has now promisd 1.5 billion euros, the same amount that the united states has been promised in order to finance the delivery of weapons. doing so in the middle of a war is extremely difficult. the logistics not only of getting these equipment to poland and romania to be shipped into ukraine, but then from the border through ukraine to frontline forces in the east, particularly when rail lines are being attacked and roads are being attacked over which these weapons need to flow is hard. but we have only a limited period of time. there is the regrouping by russian forces in the east. and at the first instance they need to be defended, and in the second instance the territory that they're taking needs to be recaptured by the ukrainians. we're in for a really tough few weeks, if not a tough few months given what's happening.

>> let me ask both of you to stay with us. let me bring into the conversation live from lviv, my colleague, president zelenskyy did another big interview in this country last night. he sat down with "60 minutes." let me show you some of what he said about the communications they've intercepted between russian soldiers and their parents. >> translator: the ukrainian security service has intercepted communications, he told us, there are russian soldiers talking with their parents about what they stole and who they abducted. there are recordings of russian prisoners of war who admitted to killing people. there are pilots in prison who had maps with civilian targets to bomb. there are also investigations being done based on the repains of the dead. >> should vladimir putin be

prosecuted for war crimes? >> translator: look, i think everyone who made a decision, who issued an order, who fulfilled an order, everyone who is relevant to this, i believe they are all guilty. >> ali, this is a president steely in his stewardship of his country at war. he now has the evidence and has witnessed the horrors of what is happening to his country by the russians. >> reporter: that's right. i mean, look, it's funny that you say that. i was speaking to a lot of ukrainians over the time i've been here. a lot of them didn't take zelenskyy seriously when he was first elected. he was a comedy actorment you'd be hard pressed to find anybody who doesn't admire him. he says exactly what everybody wants to hear here. and you know, it has resonated in this country. people are appalled, they're shocked by what's happened to their fellow citizens in bucha,

in mariupol, at the train station. they -- they kind of expected it from the russians, but they still can't believe it when they see it unfolding. and it hits very closely here. we have some incredible ukrainian producers working with us. they've been working day and night, tirelessly, getting us all of these great interviews, all of these great stories. and i was speaking to one today, she told me that a friend of hers, a 16-year-old girl, was at the railway station. her parents had sent her there. they were staying in the donbas region. her parents had sent her there to get her to safety. she was 16 years old. she got killed at that rail station. her eyes was filled with tears when she was telling me this story. she was telling me, look, this is a war crime. this is a 16-year-old girl that just want to live the same life as anybody else in europe, in the states. she's going to a train station, getting killed trying to come to the west of the country. and it's not just that one isolated incident.

you're seeing new mass graves being uncovered in bucha. there was no code of conduct in bucha. they raped, murdered, stole people -- stole their property, assassinated them in their front yards just to terrorize the population into capitulating. and it's very hard to hear these stories from people that you're working with in this country. and now the fear is that all of those crimes that you've seen in bucha, the cascading humanitarian disaster that you see in mariupol is now going to unfold in the donbas region. you know, general mcaffery spoke so well about general devornavik, a guy trained in russian military, soviet strategy, of annihilating the civilian population in order to gain battlefield momentum. and every ukrainian you speak to here knows what's coming in those areas. they've already seen it happen, and they think it's going to happen on a much broader canvas now in the donbas area.

>> ali, this may be a stupid question, but what -- how do you -- how do you protect your country from an adversary targeting your country's civilian population? >> reporter: well, that's exactly what zelenskyy is saying. you know, give us advanced weapons to protect ourselves from this onslaught. and not just our army, our civilian population. you talk to regular people here, they're saying if we had the mig fighter jets, advance missiles, we could probably hit that eight-mile-long convoy of russian hardware heading to the donbas area, but they're low on missiles here. they need more air missiles, not just shoulder launched ones. and that's how they need to prepare for it. they've been so clever in staving off this russian assault. the russians haven't been able to take kyiv. they haven't taken the suburbs. the ukrainians are still in control of all of their major cities and most of their

territory. and that's because they've outsmarted the russians without that advance hardware. they're saying imagine if we had that advanced technology how far we could go. they drilled the point home that we're not just protecting ukraine, we're protecting the rest of europe. if putin just marched through ukraine, he'd object your doorstep tomorrow -- he'd be on your doorstep tomorrow. >> ambassador, i want to bring you in on that point. it seems that one of president zelenskyy's priorities in all of his public pronouncements is to make this point -- we're fighting this fight here, but make no mistake, it isn't just about us. it's about the west, about democracies in general. should that elicit a faster and more robust response? should we be trying to prevent another bucha, another mariupol more quickly and with more urgency? >> well, yes. the only question is how would you bring this about. i think the reality is that we are trying to bring as much

equipment as fast as possible into ukraine. and the only way we can do more is for us to do it. and so the question has not been raised, and it probably won't be raised, but it may be raided given what we're see -- raised given what we're seeing in bucha, just looking at the picture that we're seeing. there is a way in which we can help the ukrainians, and it's by directly becoming involved, using our airplanes and pilots, using our missile systems. that then risks the possibility of a direct confrontation between the united states and russia, between nato and russia, and up to this point no one has been willing to take that step. the reality that we face is that ukraine is weaker and smaller than russia, and the best and easiest way to compensate for that is not only to provide it with the weapons it needs, which we're doing, but perhaps with the manpower and the real military capabilities it needs to make a difference. but we are not willing -- and i

don't think there are many people calling for taking that step. the one thing that might change all of this is the one thing that might do even more damage than we have already seen, and that would be to use -- use of any weapons of mass destruction, and i think calculations fundamentally change in the west, in washington, in brussels, in berlin about when and how to intervene. >> ali, i'm sure from where you're standing, i know there's a lot of focus on calculations in the west. but we're not sitting underneath the strikes. we're not -- as was said last week, kids now know dead kids. ali, as you reported, your producer knows of a 16-year-old killed in the train attack friday. along those lines, tom freedman has written about what we do with vladimir putin now that he's gone from a bad boy to a war criminal. how has that changed what

zelenskyy does in terms of dealing with vladimir putin? >> reporter: well, i mean, it's a very tough situation for zelenskyy. that's why, you know, he's -- it's amazing that given all the atrocities that have gone on here, all the cities won, zelenskyy still saying i'm willing to meet him. i'm willing to meet him with no preconditions because he thinks that will be the fastest way to end this war. he says, you know, we're not going to stop fighting them on the battlefield, pushing them back. but any time putin want to meet, i'm willing to meet him to bring this war to an end. he thinks that's the fastest way of stopping this war by changing vladimir putin's mind. but clearly putin does not want any peace talks. they've made every excuse they can in the book not to meet peace talks. they said, listen, there's a draft agreement, the russians have said there's enough in the text for the two leaders to meet each other. and i told a bunch of ukrainians that, they started laughing and

said, we'll believe that when we had see it. the russians don't want peace. this isn't about joining, not joining nato. they want a big chunk of our land, and they're not going to stop until we get it. i asked a bunch of ukrainians yesterday, are you willing for this war to end tomorrow and get -- you give up the donbas region? the answer was no from everybody that i asked. >> wow. >> reporter: yeah, peace talks would be the best way out of house floor. but they don't think they're going to get that any time soon. zelenskyy is leaving that on the table open ended all the time. >> i'll give you the last word. what is your sense of -- i think it's clear what the next phase of the war looks like, indiscriminate targeting of civilians. president zelenskyy described it as genocide. the military plan on the russian side is clear. what has always been more opaque is what the ukrainians have up their sleeve. what is your sense of how the ukrainians will counter this new phase? >> well, first of all, i think

we are going to give them some game-changing technology. allegedly the switch plate 600 -- something you can train a soldier to employ in two or three hours is going in substantial numbers into ukraine now. we're clearly giving them intelligence collection. the anti-ship missiles will get there at some point pretty darn soon and if after the russian navy. so at the end of the day i'm actually reasonably optimistic that it will be a bloody mess, but that the russians may incur such setbacks of disastrous proportions with hopefully large numbers surrendereding or deserting our running for their lives that putin, generals will tell him we've got to back out of this mess. that's what i'm hopeful is the outcomment but what we can't do is, you know, if this was a u.s. military force we'd make short work of these people. the apache helicopter supported

by our long-range rocket artillery would go after those. but it takes two years to train an apache pilot. so -- and president biden trying to keep us out of the war, appropriately so. so it's a challenging period coming up, but i'm confident the ukrainians are going to fight to the death. >> ali, general, ambassador, thank you so much for spending some time with us and starting off our coverage this hour. we're grateful. when we come back, president joe biden takes a step toward reducing gun violence in this country. the president's announcement on ghost guns and reaction from gun safety advocate fred guttenberg, fred, friend of the show, the father of jamie, jamie was killed in the parkland school shooting. we'll talk to fred next. later in the hour, me to reporting about how jared kushner's investment fund secured a whopping $2 billion investment from a wealth fund

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if you want to stay out of jail, you need to go good. this is a chance to find a better life for you and your friends. help grandma cross the street. yeah. he's gonna blow it. you think i can't do this? ow! this rule i'm about to announce extreme, extreme, well let me ask you, is it extreme to protect police officers, extreme to protect our children, extreme to keep guns out of the hands of people who couldn't even pass a

background check? look, the idea that someone on a terrorist list could purchase one of these guns is extreme -- it isn't extreme, just basic common sense. [ applause ] these guns are weapons of choice for many criminals. we're going to do everything we can to deprive them of that choice. and when we find them, put them in jail for a long, long time. >> this president biden promising actions on gun reform will reduce gun violence. alongside the deputy attorney general announcing today new restrictions to stop the spread of ghost guns. ghost guns are homemade guns that come usually without any serial numbers. they're harder to track and trace. it the president's reforms would require makers of gun kits to include a serial number on the firearms and for sellers to follow the same standards as with any other gun, including

requiring a background check for purchasing one, as well as a provision that requires firearm dealers to retain key records until they shut down in which case records would then be transferred to the atf. the atf notably was also there and part of today's announcements. president biden nominated steve dettelbach, a former u.s. attorney for the northern district of ohio, to lead the department which has not had a permanent director since 2015. joining our coverage, fred, his daughter was killed in the parkland school shooting. he attended today's event at the white house. also joining us, former fbi assistant director for counter intelligence, now an msnbc national security analyst. you will tell me in a minute if i botched that name. let me start with you, fred. it's very nice to see you. you i think have been enthusiastic about anywhere progress can be made. this feels like one of those

policy shifts. this is a narrow space, but it is a place president biden felt like progress could be made. tell me if we have that right, what you understand happens and why you were there for it. >> listen, today wasn't a little progress, today was a lot. what he announced on ghost guns today around background checks and having, you know, the way federal licenses are doing things with these weapons or making ghost gun crimes a federal crime, all of that is a big deal. they need to serialize these weapons. think of any single product that you have in your home today that all have serial numbers on them. you know, at this event in the rose garden today, the president spoke about gracie muhlenberger. i was with gracie's day, brian. and brian actually showed how

broken the system was before because he went ahead and recorded this, he ordered all the components to build a ghost gun in his deceased daughter's name and did so successfully. no questions asked. and so people who are buying these ghost guns are those who can't pass background checks, those who want to commit crimes. there's a reason you're seeing them showing up in more and more crimes today. i applaud the president. today was a big deal. >> you're bringing awareness, this is the president, to something that a lot of the conversations don't lift up. i mean, we spend a lot of time talking about the nra's grip on gun policies and gun politics. but what you're describing is something that for a lot of the less informed conversations seems to fly under the radar. is this -- can you sort of describe how many -- are there numbers, is it quantifiable, how much of the violence we're seeing is being carried out with

guns that are harder to trace and track? do you know, fred? >> so i don't have an exact number. what i can tell you is it's an alarmingly growing amount. in fact, sitting right behind me today was josh shapiro who's attorney general of pennsylvania. >> right. >> who has been tracing and tracking this information. and he is alarmed by what's happening in pennsylvania. if you look at california where they've got some really stringent gun laws that are working, the guns that they're finding in crimes now, they're ghost guns. and so the increase is alarming, and the -- how easy it is to get it done should concern all of us. and what the president did today is said, you know what, senate, you're broken. we can't count on you. so i'm going to do this on my own. we're going to take this action because it will save lives. that should be the only thing we

should want to know about what he did today is will it save lives, and yes, it will. >> i know you think of jamie every hour of every day. but when you see progress made and you think of the possibility that we have in office a president trying to save other people from losing the people they love, what is that like? what do you feel sitting in the rose garden? >> listen, i -- i've made it very public how much i really appreciate our president because of his humanity and his decency. but it is also his commitment to this kind of stuff. he understands loss more deeply than any human being should. and he has met with the families that have lost loved ones to gun violence, and he wants it to stop. he wants to do anything possible with his presidential authority to make it stop. now we need a congress that

works which is why the next election is such a big deal. but there's not a single thing he did today that puts anybody's rights, second amendment right, at risk, none of it. this is about protecting our rights to live, our rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. he is so committed to it, this is a decent man. i am so appreciative of the fact that he's our president, and i will continue working with him to get this stuff done. >> you always -- you always move me, and so that's why we're going to keep you over the break while i pull myself together here. i'm sure our viewers are in the same boat. i want to put some questions to frank about the real-life impact about today's policies. don't go anywhere. fred and frank will be back on the other side. how's that for a tease? s that fe ♪ ♪

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we are back with fred and frank. my team has this number. and i wonder if you can expand on it. last year alone there were approximately 20,000 suspected ghost guns reported to atf, having been recover bide law enforcement. that was ten times more than in 2016. obviously those are just the guns that ended up back in the hands of law enforcement. help us understand the scope of the problem and the impact of today's announcement. >> there's no question this is a rapidly increasing phenomenon.

in fact, it's the future. it's the future of gun violence, unfortunately. and it's a rare situation where congress is doing nothing, the president is getting in front of a trending future problem. privately manufactured firearms are a growing trend, and it's not just some guy playing around in his machine shop, in his garage. there are regions of china and pakistan that are pumping out these privately manufactured weapons, parts, components, trigger assemblies, receivers, and they're sending them all over the world, including the united states, and police departments are increasingly reporting to the fbi that they're finding them, and they can't trace them at the scene of a crime. what we did was something that's not been done in 50 years. it's been 50 years since the u.s. government took a fresh look at defining a firearm. we've expanded today the

definition of a firearm to include the parts, the components, the pieces that go into untraceable firearms. so now what does that mean? it addresses both sides of the sales transaction. if you're making them and selling them, you're making and selling a firearm, even if it's just that receiver, that trigger assembly, that one component. and you've got to put a stamped serial number on that so it can be traced by law enforcement. and if you are purchasing such a part or a kit to assemble a gun, you're now purchasing a firearm by definition, and guess what -- you're supposed to have a background check. so the gun and parts don't get into the wrong hands. so it's not an incidental, insignificant measure today. and it's something that the president had to take action on, why, because more substantive work is not getting done in congress. we have not only a ghost gun problem, we have a ghost lawmaker problem. nothing's happening. the president decided to take action where he could today. >> and the president also naming

a new atf director, frank, this is someone you know. >> it is. it's steve dettelbach. he was the u.s. attorney when i was in northern ohio, the head of the fbi there. so we partnered together to put bad guys in prison, dismantled organized crime, take guns off the street. i'll never forget one of the cases we worked together, our s.w.a.t. team had hit a house -- not suspecting to find a great number of weapons -- went up in the attic, found a crate of automatic weapons, a crate of them. i thought, this is what's on the streets of cleveland, and we were making a difference there together. so you need to be a law enforcement practitioners, i think, to be the head of the atf. you have to understand what it means to make a community safer. you need to understand what it means in terms of battling the street-level crime, where guns come from, where they end up. steve has that experience. is he going to have a tough time? yes. why? the nra doesn't want anybody

regulating any guns. is he out there on some periphery of thought where he going to take your lawfully possessed gun away? no, that's not steve. he's a law enforcement guy. he's a smart lawyer, a prosecutor. i have worked with him. of i don't to say these things, but i think he's the right choice for a very difficult position. you mentioned the atf hasn't had a director in over five years. that in itself should be a crime. they need leadership. >> amazing. fred, we've put you in this role because you're the only person i think that can have authority on this front of -- i want to know if you feel optimistic. i mean, you've both cited the broken congress and the failures to get congress to act after parkland, after newtown, after these horrific tragedies that break all of our hearts, and still nothing happens in congress. but you're both making clear that this move today will have an impact on the streets.

it will make us safer. tell me if after a day like today you feel optimistic. >> listen, i do, and realistic as well we have a lot of work to do. but today was a day that will save lives. if we keep having days like today, then that will keep families from becoming broken. and i want to touch on something frank said with law enforcement, they support everything that was done today because they're being outgunned, as well. and they know it. regarding steve dettelbach, let me tell you something -- 90% of the guns used in violent crimes come from 5% of the gun shops that are in existence. that is a direct line to the fact that we have not had leadership at the atf. when we have leadership at the atf we can start getting rid of those few gun shops that are responsible for most of the violent crime that's happening.

>> frank, fred, thank you both so much for spending some time with us on what was a really big deal today. we're grateful. when we come back, there's new reporting in "the new york times" about how a wealth fund run by the crown prince of saudi arabia made a massively huge investment in jared kushner's private equity firm afternoon after the saudis raised questions about the deal itself. it's a move raising all sort of red flags, ethical and otherwise.

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there is some remarkable and stunning new investigative reporting today about the scale of a deal and the new ethical barriers that are busted. the questions that that deal is raising between the former president's son-in-law and a close ally he worked with during his time in the white house. "the new york times" is reporting that jared kushner secured a $2 billion investment from a fund led by saudi crown prince mohammed bin salman who earlier reporting reveals benefited from kushner's support and guidance when he worked as a white house adviser to his father-in-law, and with whom kushner had dealt with on behalf of the u.s. government as recently as january, 2021. the "times" is reporting that the saudi crown prince overruled

his own panel that screens and vets his investments to decide if they're good ones or not. and there are concerns about a business deal with kushner including, quote, this is the saudis' words, the quote inexperience of the firm's management and public relations risk from kushner's prior role. this is the saudis. it's like a how bad is he kind of story. more from the "times" reporting, quote, ethics experts say that such a deal creates the appearance of potential payback for kushner's actions in the white house, or of a bid for future favor if trump seeks and wins another presidential term in 2024. kate kelly is the journalist, one of the reporter' byline on the story, and she is our guest. it's amazing. i'm going to start on page 7 which is -- this is the most remarkable kind of -- as i said, how bad is he? he's so bad, the guy that vets investments for mbs was worried about jared kushner. the minutes say, the explanation

that kushner offered for the absence of any american institutional investors in kushner's fund was that he would like to avoid media attention. he testified before the january 6 committee. did the saudis buy that? >> it's pretty pretty interesti. i can imagine that kushner was trying to keep a low profile at this point in time. remember, nicole, one thing striking about this story is the documents we're quoting from are dated late june of 2021. by that point in time, it's less than six months after kushner left his white house job and he's already well under way with this saudi deal. presumably he's been to riyadh to discuss the deal, provided a pitch book and all the particulars. that would have been weeks if not months prior in order to pull that information together and give the saudi fund time to consider it. it's possible that he was hoping to lock them in as a cornerstone investment which is what he ultimately got. they became the anchor, if you will, the cornerstone of the deal and then the plan i think

was probably to go from there and try to get additional investors interested. i will say his recent security filing shows he has a total of three overseas investors, so there must be two others in the mix. >> right, but the amounts -- what he got from the saudis i think is 2 billion. all he has is 2.5, right? >> that's right. that would mean the other two investors are smaller, and the point is taken. he is very dependent on the saudi public investment fund shared by mbs for the bulk of his investment money. there have been e news reports that they've raised something like $3 billion in commitments, but those go back to late last year, nicole. we haven't seen evidence of it yet. the most recent filing that jared's firm has made is from about ten days ago. it ought to be pretty up to date. >> what's amazing as well in the story is that, if you're mbs and betting on the trump brand, you had curtain number two.

you had steve mnuchin. explain what happened with him. >> that i think contrast i think is one of the most interesting things in the story. i'm glad you bought it back. steve mnuchin is a experienced private security investor. he bought a failing california bank in the depths of the financial crisis. as an investor he made out very well with the turn-around of indy mac, now one west bank. he invested in many cases successfully in hollywood films for years. at a time a partner at goldman sachs. he has his own pitch for a similar type of undertaking, a private equity fund and they think he looks great. if you look at some of the internal paperwork they had, they thought his credentials were terrific. he's advertising his treasury department experience. he understands the committee on foreign investment in the united states which is an important vetting process for m&a deals

that treasury overseas. he talks about his understanding of fin tech and crypto. due diligence is going smoothly. yet, he only gets half a million, a billion dollars rather than two. and he has to give the saudis a bigger break on the management fee. you can see despite the qualifications, kushner obviously just is entitled to better treatment in the rationale here. >> the four-panel members who advise mbs wrote this, the minutes recorded that all four panel members attended the meeting quote, stated they are not in favor of project castro, jared's fund. they require a majority of those present to pass the resolution, the minutes note. the crown prince overruled them. i have in a loop donald trump standing on the south lawn

echoing not just a skeptical view about what u.s. intelligence said about this letter of khashoggi, but the saudi line on that. what do we know about whether the communications that went on between jared kushner and mbs during the four years of the trump presidency were ever part of the intelligence assessment of the king of saudi arabia. >> when we looked at saudi in general or specifically when we did the khashoggi report, i'm not positive. i think it's well known in intelligence circles and more proudly that jared and prince mohammed became very friendly, they exchanged whatsapp messages. they were one another's counter parts in government. the president -- president trump would sometimes communicate with king salman. prince know hamid is the de

facto ruler of saudi and was the ruler. you can see a lot of ties there. jared was instrumental in asking the white house to tone down the response to the khashoggi murder, if you will, and convincing them to try to take a softer approach which donald trump did and, of course, there was not a lot done to try to arrest or slow down the war in gem men and, of course, you also saw, nicole, in trump's very first state visit to riyadh in may of 2020, $110 billion in deals struck. that was over a year's long period, but to sell defense equipment to the saudis from american manufacturers, among many other deals that were struck during the trump administration to try to facilitate this warm rapport with the saudis. >> kate kelly, thank you for spending time with us. thank you. we have breaking news to

tell you about on an important january 6th case, one of just two to have gone to trial so far. in the last few minutes, former virginia police officer thomas robertson has been found guilty on iks counts related to the capitol attack including felony obstruction of an official proceeding. prosecutors said that robertson was wielding a makeshift baton as he joined the first wave of rioters who broke into the u.s. capitol on the th. during closing arguments attorneys for doj say he took matters into his own hands because he didn't like the outcome of the 2020 election. we will be right back. inspired l stories of bipolar depression. i just couldn't find my way out of it. the lows of bipolar depression can take you to a dark place. latuda could make a real difference in your symptoms. latuda was proven to significantly reduce bipolar depression symptoms and in clinical studies, had no substantial impact on weight. this is where i want to be. call your doctor about sudden behavior changes or suicidal thoughts.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes on this extraordinary times. the beat with ari melber starts now. welcome to "the beat." we have several things on the docket, including something we and our team has been working on for a long time, a special report on what scares vladimir putin most. the truth and dissent within russia and his history of stifling the opposition with poisonings, crackdowns and killings. it's a special report we prepared for you. that's going to be coming up in the show. i urge you to stick with us. we think that's important. that's the news abroad. we begin tonight, our top story is news here at home and the january 6th committee which is considering something you heard a lot about. you may say, wouldn't they have figured this out by now or not? but it is a very significant question no matter what your view of history is or your politics are. it is a